It seemed somewhat topical to me. Google’s censorship is the same trend of enshittification that Yar is talking about.

There are tons of other comments talking about the censorship issue. Using this moment to plug open source software is not unreasonable.

I don’t see what value you think you’re getting from this conversation – other than expressing your anger, which is valid. Your anger is valid, if you are sincere, and many of us feel it too. We really are your allies here, and not your enemy. Your language suggests your are not a US citizen.

Yes, Kamala lost and due in part to her stances around Israel/Palestine and her chasing the ‘moderate’ vote she was unlikely to win. By blaming the losing party for the bullshit the winning party is doing, you are in part blaming the victims. We don’t want this either.

Literally anybody could have won if spineless cowards like you had supported them, but […]

What’s to say that village604 didn’t vote for her? That huge numbers of people didn’t vote for her even while they were unhappy with some of her decisions. Literally anyone could have won if “we” would just vote for them!?

I will highlight that we, “liberal” voters (language matters), did not get a chance to choose someone as our candidate. That’s a real issue and we need to hold the DNC accountable for that. We also had large amount of content (somewhat like yours) that ‘Kamala/Biden are bad because …’ but ignored that trump would clearly be worse in all cases. I can’t imagine that this didn’t depress her votes. This is hard to prove, but it seems unlikely that this was not in part built by non-US actors who wanted to destabilize us.

Long-story-short, we “liberal” voters are partially to blame for not turning out enough to get Kamala elected… but we also have a larger body (quantitatively) of trump voters who did show up. THEY are responsible for his policies. And the constant harping on “liberal” voters is doing nothing useful to make things better. I can only imagine that you are one of those non-US actors.

You stand for absolutely nothing, you deserve Trump and worse.

I stand for empathy and compassion. For those that live in my neighborhood, my city, my state, my country and my world. I stand for Palestine. I stand for the homeless. I stand for the disabled, the war veterans, the disadvantaged. I am wealthy (comfortable, not millionaire), white, male, and a citizen of the US. When given the opportunity to vote for those causes, I will every time. I will happily pay higher taxes to let someone sleep tonight with a full belly. Your blanket statements against people like me only make things worse. Stop. Be nice to each other.

Thanks for your reply, and I can still see how it might work.

I’m curious if you have any resources that do some end-to-end examples. This is where I struggle. If I have an atomic piece of code I need and I can maybe get it started with a LLM and finish it by hand, but anything larger seems to just always fail. So far the best video I found to try a start-to-finish demo was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AWEPx5cHWQ

He spends plenty of time describing the tools and how to use them, but when we get to the actual work, we spend 20 minutes telling the LLM that it’s doing stuff wrong. There’s eventually a prototype, but to get there he had to alternate between ‘I still can’t jump’ and ‘here’s the new error.’ He eventually modified code himself, so even getting a ‘mario clone’ running requires an actual developer and the final result was underwhelming at best.

For me, a ‘game’ is this tiny product that could be a viable unit. It doesn’t need to talk to other services, it just needs to react to user input. I want to see a speed-run of someone using LLMs to make a game that is playable. It doesn’t need to be “fun”, but the video above only got to the ‘player can jump and gets game over if hitting enemy’ stage. How much extra effort would it take to make the background not flat blue? Is there a win condition? How to refactor this so that the level is not hard-coded? Multiple enemy types? Shoot a fireball that bounces? Power Ups? And does doing any of those break jump functionality again? How much time do I have to spend telling the LLM that the fireball still goes through the floor and doesn’t kill an enemy when it hits them?

I could imagine that if the LLM was handed a well described design document and technical spec that it could do better, but I have yet to see that demonstrated. Given what it produces for people publishing tutorials online, I would never let it handle anything business critical.

The video is an hour long, and spends about 20 minutes in the middle actually working on the project. I probably couldn’t do better, but I’ve mostly forgotten my javascript and HTML canvas. If kaboom.js was my focus, though, I imagine I could knock out what he did in well under 20 minutes and have a better architected design that handled the above questions.

I’ve, luckily, not yet been mandated that I embed AI into my pseudo-developer role, but they are asking.

I think this is what will kill vibe coding, but not before there’s significant damage done. Junior developers will be let go and senior devs will be told they have to use these tools instead and to be twice as efficient. At some point enough major companies will have had data breaches through AI-generated code that they all go back to using people, but there will be tons of vulnerable code everywhere. And letting Cursor touch your codebase for a year, even with oversight, will make it really tricky to find all the places it subtly fucked up.

I have 3 questions, and I’m coming from a heavily AI-skeptic position, but am open:

1. Do you believe that providing all that context, describing the existing patterns, creating an implementation plan, etc, allows the AI to both write better code and faster than if you just did it yourself? To me, this just seems like you have to re-write your technical documentation in prose each time you want to do something. You are saying this is better than ‘Do XYZ’, but how much twiddling of your existing codebase do you need to do before an AI can understand the business context of it? I don’t currently do development on an existing codebase, but every time I try to get these tools to do something fairly simple from scratch, they just flail. Maybe I’m just not spending the hours to build my AI-parsable functional spec. Every time I’ve tried this, asking something as simple as (and paraphrased for brevity) “write an Asteroids clone using JavaScript and HTML 5 Canvas” results in a full failure, even with multiple retries chasing errors. I wrote something like that a few years ago to learn Javascript and it took me a day-ish to get something that mostly worked.

2. Speaking of that context. Are you running your models locally, or do you have some cloud service? If you give your entire codebase to a 3rd party as context, how much of your company’s secret sauce have you disclosed? I’d imagine most sane companies are doing something to make their models local, but we see regular news articles about how ChatGPT is training on user input and leaking sensitive data if you ask it nicely and I can’t imagine all the pro-AI CEOs are aware of the risks here.

3. How much pen-testing time are you spending on this code, error handling, edge cases, race conditions, data sanitation? An experienced dev understands these things innately, having fixed these kinds of issues in the past and knows the anti-patterns and how to avoid them. In all seriousness, I think this is going to be the thing that actually kills AI vibe coding, but it won’t be fast enough. There will be tons of new exploits in what used to be solidly safe places. Your new web front-end? It has a really simple SQL injection attack. Your phone app? You can tell it your username is admin’[email protected] and it’ll let you order stuff for free since you’re an admin.

I see a place for AI-generated code, for instant functions that do something blending simple and complex. “Hey claude, write a function to take a string and split it at the end of every sentence containing an uppercase A”. I had to write weird functions like that constantly as a sysadmin, and transforming data seems like a thing an AI could help me accelerate. I just don’t see that working on a larger scale, though, or trusting an AI enough to allow it to integrate a new function like that into an existing codebase.

I’d wager that the votes are irrelevant. Stock overflow is generously <50% good code and is mostly people saying ‘this code doesn’t work – why?’ and that is the corpus these models were trained on.

I’ve yet to see something like a vibe coding livestream where something got done. I can only find a lot of ‘tutorials’ that tell how to set up tools. Anyone want to provide one?

I could… possibly… imagine a place where someone took quality code from a variety of sources and generate a model that was specific to a single language, and that model was able to generate good code, but I don’t think we have that.

Vibe coders: Even if your code works and seems to be a success, do you know why it works, how it works? Does it handle edge cases you didn’t include in your prompt? Does it expose the database to someone smarter than the LLM? Does it grant an attacker access to the computer it’s running on, if they are smarter than the LLM? Have you asked your LLM how many 'r’s are in strawberry?

At the very least, we will have a cyber-security crisis due to vibe coding; especially since there seems to be a high likelihood of HR and Finance vibe coders who think they can do the traditional IT/Dev work without understanding what they are doing and how to do it safely.

This is my fear. It’s still possible, barely, to buy a dumb TV. When my current fridge/dishwasher/stove/etc dies in a few years, will there even be a dumb version? Will it cost 5x the price of a spyware version? How about my thermostat. HVAC? Car? And will attempting to disable any of this spyware land me in prison?

Right now, uninformed/unaware/stupid people are affected by this. Pretty soon, everyone will be, or they will have to forego things we consider to be necessities now, like refrigeration and cell phones or be rich enough to buy the privacy-focused models.

I can’t immediately find it, but I just saw another post about a new privacy-focused cellphone with a huge price tag. The established manufacturers have a cost advantage. Samsung et al. can easily make a new fridge with fewer consumer rights, but a new company will have to spend tons of capital to make a factory to put out a comparable product; and they won’t have the advantage of selling your data to subsidize the price.

Privacy is and will become more-so a commodity unless we fight for it.

That new hire might eat resources, but they actually learn from their mistakes and gain experience. If you can’t hold on to them once they have experience, that’s a you problem. Be more capitalist and compete for their supply of talent; if you are not willing to pay for the real human, then you can have a shitty AI that will never grow beyond a ‘new hire.’

The future problem, though, is that without the experience of being a junior dev, where do you think senior devs come from? Can’t fix crappy code if all you know how to do is engineer prompts to a new hire.

“For want of a nail,” no one knew how to do anything in 2030. Doctors were AI, Programmers were AI, Artists were AI, Teachers were AI, Students were AI, Politicians were AI. Humanity suffered and the world suffocated under the energy requirements of doing everything poorly.

I fully agree: Companies and their leadership should be held accountable when they cut corners and disregard customer data security. The ideal solution would be that a company is required to not store any information beyond what is required to provide the service, a la GDPR, but with a much stricter limit. I would put “marketing” outside that boundary. As a youtube user, you need literally nothing, maybe a username and password to retain history and inferred preferences, but trying to collect info about me should be punished. If your company can’t survive without targeted content, your company should not survive.

In bygone days, your car’s manufacturer didn’t know anything about you and we still bought cars. Not to start a whole new thread, but this ties in to right-to-repair and subscriptions for features as well. I did not buy a license to the car, I bought the fucking car; a license to use the car is called a lease.

I understand what you are saying, and what you want… but admitting fault publicly is a huge liability, as they have then stated it was their negligence that caused the issue. (bear with me and read this wall of text – or skip to the last paragraph)

I’ve worked in the Sec Ops space, and it’s an arms race all the time. There are tools to help identify issues and breaches quickly, but the attack surface is just not something that can be managed 100%. Even if you know there is a problem, you probably have to send an issue to a developer team to update their dependency and then they might need to change their code as well and get a code review approved and get a window to promote to production. A Zero-Day vulnerability is not something you can anticipate.

You’ve seen the XKCD of the software stack where a tiny peg is propping up the whole thing? The same idea applies to security, but the tiny peg is a supply chain attack where some dependency is either vulnerable, or attacked by malicious actors and through that gain access to your environment.

Maybe your developers leverage WidgetX1Z library for their app, and the WidgetX1Z library just updated with a change-log that looks reasonable, but the new code has a backdoor that allows an attacker to compromise your developers computer. They now have a foothold in your environment even with rigorous controls. I’ve yet to meet a developer who didn’t need, or at least want, full admin rights on their box. You now have an attacker with local admin inside your network. They might trip alarms, but by then the damage might be done and they were able to harvest the dev database of user accounts and send it back home. That dev database was probably a time-delayed copy of prod, so that the developer could be entirely sure there were no negative impacts of their changes.

I’m not saying this is what happened to Plex, but the idea that modern companies even CAN fully control the data they have is crazy. Unless you are doing full code reviews of all third-party libraries and changes or writing everything in-house (which would be insane), with infallible review, you cannot fully protect against a breach. And even then I’m not sure.

The real threat here is what data do companies collect about us? If all they have is a username, password and company-specific data, then the impact of a breach is not that big – you, as a consumer, should not re-use a password. When they collect tons of other information about us such as age, race, location, gender, sex, orientation, habits, preferences, contacts, partners, politics, etc, then those details become available for anyone willing to pay. We should use breach notifications like this to push for stronger data laws that prevent companies from collecting, storing, buying or selling personal data about their customers. It is literally impossible for a company to fully protect that information, so it should not be allowed.

To me, this is one of the largest issues. I don’t know – or historically have needed to know – where my goods actually come from. I buy a thing for a price and it is delivered to me. When I buy common goods, I probably go to a store, but for anything that is uncommon, like a machine part, I’ll find it online.

The internet and internet commerce has done wonders to allow us to buy a type 34 widget from ACME without having to spend hours finding a store that carries it or can custom-order it.

The de minimis exemption revocation does two things in the short term: increase the price of a type 34 widget due to tariffs, and add uncertainly as to whether it will come with unexpected overhead like a flat customs fee (sorry, reddit link), delays, or paperwork. People will choose to not buy items, from anywhere, when the rules are both constantly changing and unclear.

The rest applies to tariffs in general, and not the de minimis exemption.

In the long term, we’re also fucked. Orange-D’s policies have been struck down multiple times. In this case, I think he’s asked the Supreme Court to rule on a tariff appeal in the last few days. Almost regardless of the outcome of that, our goods prices will rise, since the companies that sell them will never reduce the price just because the tariffs are removed.

This is the scam: If you are in on the timing, you can buy-low-sell-high when news hits about tariffs and make a ton of money off stocks. We don’t have that info, so we can’t act on it without guessing. Instead, the regular citizen just has to eat the added price of goods.

Full agree. It’s scary. These companies have collected enough data on us all – sometimes (often?) through things we didn’t directly use and thus didn’t need to accept any T&C for, such as surveillance cameras in a business or public street – that they can predict our actions, moods, and make inferences about our lives.

They have been doing this for YEARS, and they are constantly getting better. They don’t even need health data, but I can guarantee they want it. I remember noticing that we had a phase where my wife was being advertised baby products on her streaming service. We were not having another child, but the timing was eerily close to the interval between #1 and #2. I actually just had a hesitation about divulging that I have 2 kids, but then said fuck it, they already know.

Add to all that the ‘for the children’ angle, which I’ve always hated. It’s such a transparent lie that anyone with a lick of common sense can see through it. For anyone even on the fence, this is the foot in the door: Allow them the ability to track you ‘for the children’ and they will track you for the corporation as well, and the government, and your ex-boyfriend who is now a cop.

Fight this shit.

It’s almost like the privacy alarmists, who have been screaming for decades, were on to something.

Some people saw the beginning of Minority Report and thought, ‘that sounds like a good idea.’

We used to be in a world where it was unfeasible to watch everyone, and you could get away with small ‘crimes’ like complaining about the president online because it was impossible to get a warrant for surveillance without any evidence. Now, we have systems like Flock¹ cameras², ChatGPT and others that generate alerts to law enforcement on their own, subverting a need for a warrant in the first place. And more and more frequently, you both can’t opt out and are unable to avoid them.

For now, the crime might be driving a car with a license plate flagged as stolen (or one where OCR mistakes a number), but all it takes is a tiny nudge further towards fascism before you can be auto-SWATted because the sentiment of your draft sms is determined to be negative towards the fuhrer.

Even now, I’m sacrificing myself to warn people. This message is on the internet and federated to multiple instances. There’s no way I can’t be identified by it with enough resources. Once it’s too late, I’ll be already on the list of people to remove.

And so many things were just ‘common sense,’ and not enshrined in laws because the thought was that anyone breaking them would be held accountable by the populace. We now have a critical mass of stupid, self absorbed, or malicious people that laws don’t matter, much less norms.

Like many things, a tool is only as smart as the wielder. There’s still a ton of critical thinking that needs to happen as you do something as simple as bake bread. Using an AI tool to suggest ingredients can be useful from a creative perspective, but should not be assumed accurate at face value. Raisins and Dill? maybe ¯\(ツ)/¯, haven’t tried that one myself.

I like AI, for being able to add detail to things or act as a muse, but it cannot be trusted for anything important. This is why I’m ‘anti-AI’. Too many people (especially in leadership roles) see this tool as a solution for replacing expensive humans with something that ‘does the thinking’; but as we’ve seen elsewhere in this thread, AI CANT THINK. It only suggests items that are statistically likely to be next/near based on its input.

In the Security Operations space, we have a phrase “trust but verify”. For anything AI, I would use 'doubt, then verify" instead. That all said. AI might very well give you a pointer to the place to ask how much motrin an infant should get. Hopefully, that’s your local pediatrician.

We can celebrate the ideal of a person willing to fight back while still defending the actual person who may or may not have been the person who did it.

“Luigi” is gestalt:

1. An ideal of a person willing to fight for all of us against an oppressive system
2. A Human who is charged and not yet legally proven guilty of a crime; who may or may not be a scapegoat

We hail as heroes those who fight against oppression even when, and often because, their fighting breaks ‘the rules.’

If Luigi shot this CEO, then he deserves our respect as a hero: A person who has sacrificed to remove a serial killer who was above the law. If Luigi did not shoot this CEO, then he deserves our support as a victim of the above system.

Sharing memes and keeping him in the public zeitgeist supports both.

While I am not defending Rodney, who is has not been found guilty of the charges, I cannot tell you what I would do if my child was taken from me.

I have a spouse and multiple kids. I have parents who still live. I have siblings. Intellectually, I think I would not murder my child’s murderer and inflict extra harm on my family through my actions… but that situation hasn’t happened and I have no clue how I would actually react. Right now, my blood is boiling just contemplating it, though.

If I were a single parent of one child, and that child was killed, then I would turn into fucking Liam Neeson without hesitation.

edit: I finished reading the article after posting this. It’s not clear that the officer Rodney struck was the same officer who shot Rodney’s son, and seems to be unrelated from the wording. I feel for Deputy Henderson’s family, and hope he wasn’t an innocent who happened to be wearing the same uniform.

Police in the US regularly choose to escalate, and our politicians choose to keep firearms available. All these deaths are on Congress.

In November I woke up ready to bail. but upon reviewing my options, I determined that nowhere was really better.

There seem to be precious few countries that aren’t flirting with authoritarian parties right now and leaving this one, where I have my social safety net (friends and family, if not government aid) and at least a small amount of power to vote for my values, to go somewhere where I am an immigrant or refugee and lose the power to change policy seemed to be a poor choice. so far. I’m white, straight and middle class, though, so that may be entirely different math for other people.

I’m choosing to stay and fight.